Curse

Gli · Jun 19, 2007, 02:16 PM // 14:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by GloryFox

You don't get it... these skills rescue these classes from public scrutiny and opinion. If you ask a good Paragon or Assassin player the class obviously lived for them without these new skills. Thats why I still have my PvE Assassin after one year of Factions release despite hatred. Its true I don't need these skills to show how good of a player I am but it helps when looking for a PuG for some missions.

When GW:EN comes out my ability to find a Group will dramatically increase.

Of course, who doesn't want a permanent 35% damage reduction? There'll be a Paragon in every PUG.

Why don't we give all professions a "You win!" skill then, and make the standard partysize 10? Everyone can be happy that way.

dark_slayer · Jun 19, 2007, 02:16 PM // 14:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by -Loki-

Elementalists didn't need a huge boost, but making their skills trash wasn't the answer.

your 100% right

keli · Jun 19, 2007, 02:17 PM // 14:17

Quote:

Originally Posted by -Loki-

Elementalists didn't need a huge boost, but making their skills trash wasn't the answer.

Here is the right answer, i totally agree, ty for the post.

Racthoh · Jun 19, 2007, 02:19 PM // 14:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gli

If 2 skills can 'rescue' a class, that class is actually better off dead if you ask me.

Perhaps now the paragon will see more play in pugs, and when players start to see what the paragon is capable of they'll start accepting them more often.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gli

Why don't we just give Paragons one less slot on the skillbar and put "There's Nothing to Fear!" in a fixed position?

Given the uproar over the ele skills, the same could've been said for them. But I suppose autokill buttons aren't as healthy for the game as godmode buttons.

Quote:

Originally Posted by -Loki-

Elementalists didn't need a huge boost, but making their skills trash wasn't the answer.

Pretty much how the PvE paragon felt in the past, except they weren't receiving boosts in the past period. But unlike the elementalist, their potential hasn't been realized by the community. When I read how the ideal group from some players consists of 6 SF eles, I can't help but not care that their killing power wasn't increased.

GloryFox · Jun 19, 2007, 02:29 PM // 14:29

Quote:

posted by Racthoh
Perhaps now the paragon will see more play in pugs, and when players start to see what the paragon is capable of they'll start accepting them more often.

Yes with or without There's Nothing to Fear.

Quote:

Given the uproar over the ele skills, the same could've been said for them. But I suppose autokill buttons aren't as healthy for the game as godmode buttons.

Even with the skill in combination with There on Fire I'm still having a hard sell for Urgoz groups so people have not caught on yet. Furthermore you still need to have rank 10 in Sunspear for it to be truly effective and that takes some work.

bhavv · Jun 19, 2007, 02:32 PM // 14:32

How did I miss this? Oh, I couldnt get onto guru yesterday. Heres my comments:

1) Two months of developing/testing these skills and they get nerfed in 3 days. Shows us how good a job Anet are doing.

2) To the people saying elems already do enough damage, they still dont deserve useless unusable skills like the nerfed PVE skills, glyph of elem power is better then both now. Elementalists are powerful in normal mode, but I thought that the idea behind the the PVE skills was to make each class better in HM.

3) My solution for intensity - keep it as it is, add +1 second duration per rank in ES.

4) Did anyone at Anet consider giving elemtalists a PVE only ward skill instead of just buffing their damage all the time? Something like 'allies inside this ward gain a 40-75% block chance and +10-25 armor'. I would have used that.

And anet expect me to buy GW:EN and GW2 after screwing my once loved game over so many times like this? I'm deffo not buying anymore GW products at all, inluding the legacy edition which I previously couldnt wait for. Thank you morons at anets development team for f****** your own game in the A** numerous times up to now.

Jetdoc · Jun 19, 2007, 02:44 PM // 14:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by bhavv

2) To the people saying elems already do enough damage, they still dont deserve useless unusable skills like the nerfed PVE skills, glyph of elem power is better then both now. Elementalists are powerful in normal mode, but I thought that the idea behind the the PVE skills was to make each class better in HM.

I've said it once and I'll say it again....

Why not use both Elemental Lord and Glyph of Elemental Power?

If you do, then Ele's just got the buff you're craving.

keli · Jun 19, 2007, 02:48 PM // 14:48

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jetdoc

I've said it once and I'll say it again....

Why not use both Elemental Lord and Glyph of Elemental Power?

If you do, then Ele's just got the buff you're craving.

because its 2 skills and equipping +1 attack skill better is then elemental lord

bhavv · Jun 19, 2007, 02:52 PM // 14:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jetdoc

I've said it once and I'll say it again....

Why not use both Elemental Lord and Glyph of Elemental Power?

If you do, then Ele's just got the buff you're craving.

Because I dont have elemental lord as I only have 5000 faction donated, and it really isnt worth the amount of grinding required just to get such a trash skill.

Series · Jun 19, 2007, 02:56 PM // 14:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by keli

so it wolud be better if they add a non-damage buff spell just like no exhaustion

win.

(12 characters)

Steps_Descending · Jun 19, 2007, 03:16 PM // 15:16

Double post(other is 2 from here).
WoW, think the server got a lag spike just now.

Perfected Shadow · Jun 19, 2007, 03:16 PM // 15:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by seut

Crit Barragers wouldn't like such a move..

Hmmm crit barragers don't really need the extra armor from Critical Agility, and Barrage works best (from experience, I don't have the numbers) with a recurve bow and no IAS. It's because under the refire rate of a recurve, every time you shoot it's a Barrage, whereas with an IAS or a faster bow you'd be alternating normal shots with Barrage.

Steps_Descending · Jun 19, 2007, 03:22 PM // 15:22

All I have to say is...

LoL!

About Intensity (best skill icon Btw), with 16 +2+1 fire magic and +23% (if Glyph gives +2 i'll admit the elem lord nerf is downright stupid) i'm sure you can kill a mob in 10 sec, so... Assassin's Promise, anyone? ( I gotta love that hex)

noblepaladin · Jun 19, 2007, 03:30 PM // 15:30

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lagg

Except that for some seemingly random reason, some skills are linked to the primary attribute and others are not.

Why is it that my Warrior can no longer use "There's Nothing to Fear!" (I had worked out a pure adrenaline build with a Zealous Axe that provided just enough energy to keep it up constantly) but any other melee profession can use Whirlwind Attack or "Save Yourselves!" with no penalties?

It's not random at all. When ANet first announced the PvE only skills, they said it was to make Mesmers better (in response to a popular thread on these forums about why Mesmers are the most underused and perhaps worst class in PvE, something that most of the "expert" PvE players seemed to agree on at the end). Later on ANet stated that they will improve the lesser used PvE classes (not just Mesmers). They stated their goals clearly (at first it even sounded like Mesmers were going to be the ONLY ones receiving PvE skills). Quite simply, they wanted to make Mesmers, Sins, and Paragons good at something. There was no reason to bring anything other than MM/SS Necros, Monks, Eles, Warriors, and sometimes rangers because there is nothing useful in PvE that Mes, Sin, or Para can do that those class cannot do better.

Whirlwind attack is not that big of a deal. I tried it on my assassin and it was pathetic, because the dagger's base damage is so low. +20 damage is nothing when some of the assassins normal skills such as death blossom does something like +45 twice to adjacent foes. Dervishes already do AoE attacks naturally with their scythe, so Whirlwind attack simply adds a little damage (they already have better skills already to do that). Whirlwind attack does open up some possibilities for Hammers and Swords though, although I think it can use a buff, maybe some armor penetration.

I do sense a nerf for Save Yourselves coming though. Not only can paragons use it well, it will find it's way on the bars of paragons, assassins, dervishes too. Even having near god mode for 50% of the time is very good. It's just that 95% of the people can't get the skill yet cause they don't have enough allegiance title, so there is not much talk about it yet. I can imagine a critical agility assassin maintaining Save Yourselves for most of a battle and a paragon obviously benefits a lot from it too.

What's wrong with "There's nothing to fear"? Well, it could be used by Warriors, Rangers, and Necros as well as it could be used by Paragons. Where does that leave the Paragon? Way down at the bottom of the pile again. Mesmers got some nuking type skill in Cry of Pain. However, Elementalists got two skills that made them completely destroy everything. So the Mesmer is once again at the bottom of the food chain (On a side note, I disagree with turning the Mesmer into a partial nuker, while it makes them more desirable, it doesn't fit with their class that well). Assassins can actually survive for a little bit with Critical Agility, but Warriors and Dervishes seem to be able to use it better. So why bring an Assassin?

The MM/SS Necro is already one of the most used in the game, they don't really need the god mode skill "There's nothing to fear". Even without Intensity and Elemental Lord, Elementalists are still the best nukers.

The nerfs were necessary to keep the original goals in mind, which is to make the less desirable classes more wanted. I do have some problems with it though, but it's a step in the right direction. Some of my complaints: PvE Warriors suffered a lot from the 25 armor max cap, which was made to prevent some really cheesy PvP builds. They should get a PvE skill that improves their armor. After all, they are suppose to be the "tanks". The Ranger and Ritualist skills can be buffed a little more. I don't think that Elementalists should get skills that make their nuking far more stronger than it already is, but they should get something. Note that water, earth, and lightning are not used in PvE. Something that would open up the other lines of magic would be nice (although it would probably be difficult to think of something that does that). Ether nightmare can use some reworking. Degen itself is kinda broken in PvE because monsters have ridiculous amounts of HP, but Degen doesn't stack well (caps at 10). There is no point in bringing Ether Nightmare if you already have a SF Elementalist.

On another note, people have a problem with the nerfs because they were given something, and then it was taken away. If they only came out with Mesmer skills that mesmer primaries can use, then people would be saying "great!" they saved the mesmer class. Or ANet came out with the current patch the first time around, you will hear some people complain that they didn't get a great skill, but most of the people will quote ANet and say that the point is to buff the weak classes. People tend not to be as thankful as they should when you give stuff to them, and they tend to have a much bigger problem when you take stuff away from them.

icymanipulator · Jun 19, 2007, 04:07 PM // 16:07

If you honestly believe Critical Agility and "Theres Nothing to Fear!" will save Assassins and Paragons respectively in PvE you are delusional. What is essentially being claimed is that a single skill each entirely dependent on owning and nearly beating Nightfall (to the point of a decent rank in SS) is so overpowered it will save the classes on their own. It will not happen.

Both classes carry a reputation in PvE...

Assassins: Still carry the stigma from Factions release when people thought they were capable of tanking...whoops! Not much if anything has changed in PvE since and nothing is going to make this class more attractive for groups. Not even this new skill. If I was desperate for an assassin (i have no idea why but for arguments sake) I would just use Zenmai and not trouble myself for one skill with a PuG player.

Paragons: Awesome class that got nerfed to absolute hell and back. If you are absolutely desperate for a Paragon why hassle yourself with a lackluster player when General Morgahn will suffice? I use him for Stand Your Ground, Go for the Eyes, and Aria of Zeal and it gets the job done every time all the time.

Nothing is going to bring these classes into the limelight short of absolutely forcing PvE groups to take them in future content. i.e. a mission where it cannot be completed unless you have someone from one of these classes. Remember these skills are SUPPLEMENTARY not FUNDAMENTAL. For the amount of griefing over balance I think everyone is forgetting no one is forcing you to use these skills, you don't even have to use the hero points. If someone else chooses to it doesn't effect your own personal gaming experience in the least and it certainly wouldn't effect my own personal group formation.

Evilsod · Jun 19, 2007, 04:13 PM // 16:13

Why exactly did Mesmers get the buff anyway? Its not Ether Nightmares cost and recharge that make it suck. Its the general concept! What the hell is -4//7 degen gonna do again Hard Mode enemies.

Cry of Pain did not need a buff. Its just those f*cking mesmers whining FOR NOTHING. Cry of Pain was already overpowered at 20 seconds. Now it gets buffed to 15 seconds because for some reason the fact it can obliterate mobs already just isn't enough for them. Maybe they'd be happy i we just gave them the Base Defence skill from AB... Why exactly are Anet only listening to the Mesmer crowd?

The Mesmer team could wipe the floor with DoA mobs in 3 seconds before they buffed it.

People have been generally happy with them. Intensity/Ele Lord got overnerfed into uselessness, most people saw them as a little overpowered. Personall i saw them as more overpowered on secondary Elementalists (see Cry of Pain/Necrosis).
People like Necrosis.
People like Save Yourselves.
People like Whirlwind Attack.
People like Vampirism... sorta.
People like Eternal Aura.
People think that Triple Shot and Never Rampage Alone are absolutely bollocks. The only 1 build i found NRA to be useful for was nerfed when TNTF was made into the godmode button for Paragons only. Why are Anet not leaping to the rescue here? Where is our ranged deep wound? It may be in the works for GWEN so i can't hold that against them. Where is our decent IAS? Critical Agility was barely usable since the rate of criticals is horrible with such a slow refire. This update has brought absolutely nothing for a Ranger. I've now turned to using Prep Shot/Apply and Necrosis since its about the best we've got from the PvE skills.

Whats the deal with TNTF and Critical Agility anyway? Why exactly was Critical Agility in desperate need of that nerf... its an enchantment, its ALWAYS on top if it refreshes. It didn't stop the primary Assassin doing its job... TNTF is overpowered in general, not because of its use on secondary paragons, yet they buffed it to make it even stronger on primaries!

At the moment i have a Paragon build that basically gives a constant 28% and 33% (subject to change if i bother getting new equip/boosting Sunspear) damage reduction and a very frequenty +100 AL to all other party members.
Why do Anet seem to think that it would be great if Paragons got into PvE teams only as a godmode button? So the only way that Paragons could be made decent in PvE from Anets point of view is to take everything that was overpowered about them in 8man Paragon teams from PvP and combine it into 1 super paragon... thats extremely boring to play.

Anet haven't saved the Paragon. They've just killed it. If you aren't running TNTF now with a decent rank in Sunspear (r7 been the minimum anyway since its for Storyline) then you won't get into a team.

Leighwyn · Jun 19, 2007, 04:31 PM // 16:31

It has been said a few times before in the thread, but still I think overlooked.

I'm pretty sure the QQing about the elementalist skill changes is not because people loved how they were before when they would obliterate the entire demon race with their aid, but because an anticipated game update for them is now borderline not usable.

We'd been hearing about the addition of PvE only skills for some time now, and the fact is that by focusing purely on the damage buff for an elementalist, they missed the ball - even moreso because they then took most of it away. The point of special, PvE only skills is to be able to enjoy them through having them on your bar. By taking the path they chose, elementalists can't exactly do that anymore.

Everyone knows elementalists do a high amount of damage already, which is the reason for the animosity toward those complaining about the nerf - why should we care if your 'omgawesome' damage gets reverted back to being simply 'awesome' when paragons/assassins/ritualists/dervish are in such dire need of being party-worthy (side note: every class introduced since prophecies is rarely accepted? weird...)? The point is, damage wasn't the only path Anet could take with the ele skills - it was merely the most uncreative and obvious one. As a result of that choice, and barring any further changes, elementalist skill bars will be looking the same today as they did last week...which is fine, unless you were an elementalist not looking for an insane damage buff but simply looking forward to playing with a few new skills that offered some special flare.

Du Kor · Jun 19, 2007, 04:42 PM // 16:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by Evilsod

People like Save Yourselves.

Thats not quite right. It should read 'People (who are not warriors) like Save Yourselves'. The standard warriror reaction to seeing this skill is 'buff others only , not me? that sucks'

These are the first shiney new pve only skills we get. Why not make them important to the class for whom they were intended. Actually that seems to be the direction. If a skill has usefullness to another class -> tie it to a primary attribute to severly limit the usefullness to the other class while giving the primary class elite use of the skill. From what i am reading here Sins, Dervs, and Paragons are feeling good about that.

Why not all the classes?

It has been mentioned that save yourselves is an aggro getting tool based upon hidden logic in the AI. Well if this is the purpose of save yourselves it should have been called an Attack Me! shout so that its purpose was clear and not mysteriously based upon game logic that is opaue to us.

Along that line an Attack Me! shout for the warrior class would have been much better than a Save Yourselves. Why? Because it would make the warrior class special, other classes would think twice about using it because they would indeed be attacked. Warriors would like it because it would stop the hard mode ai from fleeing or attacking soft targets to refocus , even for a little bit, on the warrior whose main purpose should be soaking up damage. And i dont think having everyone attacking the warror would cause hue an cry from the rest of the party as being overpowered. Some thought would be needed if it should be area effect or target. 2 differen skills, both would have usefullness.

Leighwyn · Jun 19, 2007, 04:49 PM // 16:49

Quote:

Originally Posted by Du Kor

...it should have been called an Attack Me! shout...

I would prefer "That's Not What Your Mother Said!"

jelmew · Jun 19, 2007, 05:18 PM // 17:18

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gaile Gray

Hey, all,

Isaiah just relayed that there is a known bug with Critical Agility, and that bug will be fixed tomorrow.

Sorry 'bout that!

See, they try to improve the skills, Gaile, could you ask them to take a close look at some other skills?